By the mid 3rd century, when the empire split into three competing empires and widespread civil unrest massively disrupted the trade network, the degeneration of Imperial finances escalated. What if the Celtic thrones fought to survive beyond its walls? They had no Ikea. Accessibility Help. | NSH. Given all that, it'd be a phenomenal situation if Rome never fell. "Alternate History Hub" What If the Roman Empire Never Fell? But if the empire is not to fall, ambitions of conquest must be held in check, maintaining the delicate balance of international relations. Whilem II (Sorry if I spelled it worng) is kept on the thorne but is a figure head. Be the first to contribute! Finland the Baltics and Poland all simultaneously have calls Independence movements with the Polish Lithuanian Commonwealth, Courland, and a Communist Finland Gaining complete Independence with Estonia and Northern Latvia becoming a puppet. In Peru they extract tribute from the Chavin culture. It looks like we don't have any Company Credits for this title yet. What if someone or something finally unleashed it? What if The German empire never fell after WW1 What if after ww1 instead of disoving the German Empire say the allies allow it to exist. Are there any key events that could have stemmed Rome's fall if they went differently? Many factors would have to go into Rome winning the war against this fresh expansion. The principle of steam power was already known to the ancient Greeks. It's a system where anyone can become an official, or even emperor. In the 600s the new religion of Islam gallops out of Arabia, and Muslim armies began a war against both the Romans and the Sassanians, already fighting since the 200s. See also. © 2016 by Jerry Glover. This gave the Goths free rein in Thrace and Dacia, a major instigator of the process that led to the fall of the Western Empire. Roman legions, consisting of Mayan warriors too, march to the gold regions of Peru and California, returning to Rome with spoils that make the treasure of the Temple of Jerusalem look like a prize at a village fete lucky dip. Steel was known to the Romans, and sooner or later they must have realised that making tools from it instead of just weapons, would increase agricultural productivity, and architecture would develop faster for its use in tools, cranes, and girders. A search for books on the subject yielded Charles XII and the Collapse of the Swedish Empire 1682-1719 by Robert Nisbet Bain. "Alternate History Hub" What If the Roman Empire Never Fell? But each group selfishly favoured its own aims and proved reluctant to assist other parts of the empire. In California they enslave Native American societies. Grain ships carrying bubonic plague from Egypt sink in a storm before reaching Constantinople. Rome expands into sub-Saharan Africa. If the british empire had never fell, what would be the best first XI; User Info: kurdt032. Would the world as a whole be more or less technologically advanced? Almost all emperors after that time were army officers or imperial officials (stratocracy). Fandom Apps Take your favorite fandoms with you and never miss a beat. Sections of this page. As a result of acquiring territories seized from Russia and the Polish–Lithuanian Commonwealth, as well as its involvement in the Thirty Years' War, Sweden found itself transformed into the leader of Protestantism. I know this is finicky but Russian Empire, not Tsardom of Russia. Finances rebalanced, imperial wealth starts to surge. What if the Ottoman Empire survived world war one WW1? What if their ancient elemental powers still quietly thrummed through the land? One that stands out is the Battle of Adrianople in 378 when Roman forces of the Eastern empire lost some ten thousand lives to the Visigoths under Fritigern in modern Turkey. What if their ancient elemental powers still quietly thrummed through the land? What If the Roman Empire Never Fell? Valens negotiates, stalling while reinforcements arrive, and wins the battle. All bribery is punishable by the most dreadful forms of execution in the Colosseum. They said the Swedish Empire fell in 1721 OH REALLY. What if the Ottoman Empire never fell? Press question mark to learn the rest of the keyboard shortcuts. : Part 1 (2013) Plot Keywords. The Industrial Revolution could have started a thousand years earlier, and would have marked the beginning of the end of the slave system. The first outing of Minerva's Arrow, a steam engine that runs on rails, is a centrepiece of a year-long festival of art and technology in Rome. What if the Roman Empire Never Fell? Instead, they muster their advantage in technology and international connections to cajole the Mayans into a trade alliance to develop their civilization – exchange steel, machinery, and urban planning for Mayan gold and hardwoods. Originally published in All About History, no. It's a logical step for them to build strong diplomatic relations with other empires, the Hunnic, Sassanian, Rashidun, Umayyad, Mongol, and subsequent empires. With a thousand years of super-accelerated progress in all fields of human knowledge at his disposal, Leonardo Da Vinci is born in a suburb of the Florentia-Roma mega-city, the largest on Earth... How would Rome's government be different? They did something similar to the Danes, and they had a much better chance of keeping S-H. Essential items such as weapons, clothing, and food became part of soldiers pay, and much trade took place without currency. For a Western Roman Empire still in existence today would have to be so different from the reality of what made it the Roman Empire that we could hardly call it that at all! D&D Beyond The periods of service are fixed, like the President of the United States, so no office gets too much influence over the rest. It looks like we don't have any Plot Keywords for this title yet. Let's also not forget that the Eastern Empire continued until the 15th century. 'Never' is the key idea here. In the second half of the 3rd century the silver content of the antonianus fell to only 2%, causing hyperinflation, which had to be dealt with by Aurelian in 271 and 274 by raising taxes and eradicating the bad coinage in Rome and Italy but not the provinces. So the system crumbled from almost constant civil wars which weakened the empire. level 2. After three years of exploration and conflict in Mesoamerica, Rome establishes trade and diplomatic relations with the Mayans, helping prevent their civilization's collapse. That's very important, as is keeping the army properly paid. Mines in Italy were not large or reliable enough, so instead Rome could stem the amount of silver it exported to India in return for spices, curtailing its taste for luxuries. The state's inability to pay its troops increased too. The Byzantine Empire (Greek: Βασιλεία Ῥωμαίων) is a country situated between the Balkans and Asia Minor. That's the basic theory, anyway. To keep the empire stable, a balance would have to be struck between tight, autocratic rule by an elite oligarchy (with no monarchy abhorrent to Roman ideals), intelligent decision making, and the machinations of prestigious, well-connected individuals. Jump to. The Modern day is almost Identical as in OTL apart from a much larger Sweden, and a Much larger Finland, as the USSR still collapses and, as it was annexed, was joined with the karelian SFSR. In the Mesoamerican scenario, the Romans come up against the Maya, sparking conflicts that the Romans would be hard-pressed to win in harsh jungles, and greatly outnumbered. In certain areas I suggest it would be a lot more advanced, provided there's no stagnation of scientific enquiry that happened in Europe across Late Antiquity. Browse more videos. (Part 2) Report. Nov 29, 2016 - What if the Roman Empire never collapsed and stayed a massive power in not just the ancient world, but today's world? Instead of the intelligentsia putting so much effort into Christian religious doctrine and hoarding ancient knowledge in closed monasteries, there is a freer circulation of information that allows engineering to innovate much faster. With much more radical reform it might have worked if the Tetrarchy reformed into a Supreme Imperial Office comprising more regional co-emperors, who were chosen only from the Senate. It boasts a rich history of warring and prosperity. One response was to debase the currency. The state's inability to pay its troops increased too. Intelligence and capability also have to carry real political influence, basically an oligarchy of technocrats. From the end of the 2nd century levels of trade and prosperity fell, never again achieving the levels of the early Principate. Essential items such as weapons, clothing, and food became part of soldiers pay, and much trade took place without currency. In the second half of the 3rd century the silver content of the, In the 600s the new religion of Islam gallops out of Arabia, and Muslim armies began a war against both the Romans and the, Grain ships carrying bubonic plague from Egypt sink in a storm before reaching Constantinople. What if the Ottoman Empire survived world war one WW1? Sweden emerged as a great European power under Axel Oxenstierna and King Gustavus Adolphus. 'Never' is the key idea here. After three years of deliberation by the new Supreme Consilium, reforms are announced for all offices of the legislature and executive to forever eradicate corruption. The averted, To keep the empire stable, a balance would have to be struck between tight, autocratic rule by an elite oligarchy (with no monarchy abhorrent to Roman ideals), intelligent decision making, and the machinations of prestigious, well-connected individuals. The ensuing massive cost entails harsh taxes which provoke Empire-wide rioting. Playing next. For one, Rome would need the resources to defend the Middle East, which supposing they still have western Europe and north Africa, and are investing deeply into gaining a foothold in Mesoamerica as I envisage, it is still questionable unless they can make up with the Sassanians. But an enhanced Senate continued to exist for more than a century afterwards. If the Romans had cottoned onto the possibilities of that, combined with iron and steel it's feasible they could have invented the steam engine, hence locomotives, revolutionising long-distance transport, a rail network spanning the empire. For a Western Roman Empire still in existence today would have to be so different from the reality of what made it the Roman Empire that we could hardly call it that at all! One response was to debase the currency. Each office is decided by a small closed election, a bit like the way the Pope is chosen from a group of cardinals. Be the first to contribute! ... Lol, not trying to r/whooosh here but they actually are officially still called "the Swedish Empire;" I know because my Bismarck T-shirt shipped from, according to DHL, the "SWEDISH EMPIRE… It isn't a biography of Charles XII, it is more a book about his wars and how they and his actions brought about the collapse of the Swedish Empire. By the mid 3rd century, when the empire split into three competing empires and widespread civil unrest massively disrupted the trade network, the degeneration of Imperial finances escalated. What If the Roman Empire Never Fell? 23. Press … Wouldn’t the Germans take Pomerania during unification? If Valens had kept his head, who knows? We're speaking of the Western Empire, which after a long decline symbolically fell in Ravenna in 476. From the mid 3rd century emperors also wasted time with matters that previously were dealt with by an imperial legate. Be the first to contribute! The Swedish, somehow make it's way to the modern day with no territorial changes apart from some land on the Polish and German coast. See also. | NSH. Yet still oligarchal and Roman enough to preserve the ideals that work so well in the empire's favour – conquest, assimilation, expansion. W... hat if the Celtic thrones fought to survive beyond its walls? The averted Plague of Justinian allows the Eastern Empire to populate faster by a factor of two. The Tsardom of Russia ceased to exist during the reign of Peter the Great. Majoran uses an enhanced fleet of 65 ships (not 40) to win against the Vandals at the Battle of Cartagena (real timeline 461). He retakes Sicily, gradually reverses the Vandal usurpation of North Africa. Preferably, they could discover new sources that exist in central Europe or sub-Saharan Africa, or by voyaging to Mesoamerica where silver and gold is plentiful and fairly easy to reach. It's strange that soccer has not taken off across the old empire in the way rugby and cricket have. : Part 2 (2013) Company Credits. This isn't necessarily for everyone's benefit. The Fel Empire, also called the Galactic Empire, Reborn Empire, Fel Imperium, New Empire or the New Order, was the name given to the restored Galactic Empire some time after 44 ABY following the ascension of Jagged Fel to the throne. It looks like we don't have any Crazy Credits for this title yet. If he was unwilling to trust anyone else to deal with a distant problem it would be neglected, and the trend towards smaller provinces made it even harder to get things done. Only soldiers are allowed to keep their jobs as long as they are performing well, but no general can become Emperor. The Roman concept of state was continued for almost a millennia by the Holy Roman Empire, and the Western Roman Empire continued to exist 'on paper' but only as a legal formality. The expensive civil wars that contributed to the collapse could be averted if Rome had reformed the system by which the emperor was selected after the 3rd century when the senatorial class was marginalised and any connection with the imperial family was sufficient to make a claim. By using our Services or clicking I agree, you agree to our use of cookies. A Roman-Axumite alliance in Northeast Africa prevents the Islamic expansion into North Africa, but loses Mesopotamia to the caliphate powers. On the other hand, the cost of this may well be an even more hierarchical and brutal society, with slavery still rooted, and a very harsh law code. The blame for this calamity rests with the Emperor Valens (364-378). Half the empire's population and those of its neighbors, around 290 million, perish. Just click the "Edit page" button at the bottom of the page or learn more in the Plot Keywords submission guide. More posts from the AlternateHistory community, The only alternate history place on the internet, Press J to jump to the feed. A surviving Western Empire which had reintegrated with the Eastern Empire might well hold vastly disproportionate influence over human affairs everywhere. The Northern War didn't end in a complete Russian victory with Russia annexing everything past mainland Sweden. Instead of being the 'Last True Roman' as he's been called, he might have been the greatest of them all. It would encompass, and indeed define, most if not the whole of Europe, as well as other parts of the world. The expensive civil wars that contributed to the collapse could be averted if Rome had reformed the system by which the emperor was selected after the 3rd century when the senatorial class was marginalised and any connection with the imperial family was sufficient to make a claim. Russia tries to retake Finland, and with Swedish help take a large chunk of Finnish land but not being able to capitulate them. From one trade caravan on the Silk Road plague reaches Europe and then a ship bound for Mesoamerica. What if the Roman Empire Never Fell? The Goths are assimilated, preventing their plunder throughout Thrace. – popular memes on the site ifunny.co From the mid 3rd century emperors also wasted time with matters that previously were dealt with by an imperial legate. Almost all emperors after that time were army officers or imperial officials (stratocracy). How possible is it for Rome not to have fallen, what would have to be different? Given all that, it'd be a phenomenal situation if Rome never fell. Proudly created with. Emperor Valens heeds the advice of the cautious Western general Richomer not to attack, instead of the hawkish Eastern general Sebastian who urges the order. The periods of service are fixed, like the President of the United States, so no office gets too much influence over the rest. From the days of Rome it has been renowned as the continuation of the Roman Empire after it's fall in 476 A.D. What if the Roman Empire never fell and the Caesar ruled London? And if reform included the chance to become a senator or any official on personal merits, not just for being one of the landed classes. And in South Africa it's seen as the poor, black people's game compared to white man's rugby. If he was unwilling to trust anyone else to deal with a distant problem it would be neglected, and the trend towards smaller provinces made it even harder to get things done. The Swedish, somehow make it's way to the modern day with no territorial changes apart from some land on the Polish and German coast. The solution was Diocletian's, © 2016 by Jerry Glover. It would encompass, and indeed define, most if not the whole of Europe, as well as other parts of the world. Despite all the negative connotations of being an empire, a surviving, generally non-belligerent Western Roman Empire would in some sense be the model of a well-governed, prosperous, cosmopolitan society, having evolved beyond the strife and economic problems that dogged its early history, exacerbating its actual demise. Cookies help us deliver our Services. What if the Ottoman Empire never fell? An interview in which I outline ideas about the continuation of the Roman empire beyond the 5th century, up to the dawn of the Renaissance. The Modern day is almost Identical as in OTL apart from a much larger Sweden, and a Much larger Finland, as the USSR still collapses and, as it was annexed, was joined with the karelian SFSR. During negotiations, premature attack broke out from the Roman side, and Valens allowed this to force his hand, ordering a general attack that spiralled into a disaster, including his own death. The rail network gradually expands to all frontiers. kurdt032 5 years ago #11. More powerful engines of war, including firearms, might well have encouraged emperors to expand the empire's boundaries, bigger wars and extra pressure on state finances and reductions in the overall standard of living. Proudly created with Wix.com, From the end of the 2nd century levels of trade and prosperity fell, never again achieving the levels of the early Principate. The solution was Diocletian's Tetrarchic system from 293, quartering the empire, each part ruled by a sovereign emperor. Excellent cartography and astronomy borrowed from Persia is key to making this possible. With British and Irish territory stabilised, Rome trains on Scandinavia and the Ukraine, establishing an arctic frontier across the Baltic states. How might Rome have progressed beyond the 5th century? That led to rivals and bloody conflicts. What if the Roman Empire never fell and the Caesar ruled London? With diplomatic outposts established in Mayan cities, Roman legions, consisting of Mayan warriors too, march to the gold regions of Peru and California, returning to Rome with spoils that make the treasure of the Temple of Jerusalem look like a prize at a village fete lucky dip. That led to rivals and bloody conflicts. Let's also not forget that the Eastern Empire continued until the 15th century. 6:15. To prevent continual currency devaluing, Rome would have needed to grow its silver and gold reserves. What would the world be like if the Roman Empire never fell. Just click the "Edit page" button at the bottom of the page or learn more in the Company Credits submission guide. 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War against this fresh expansion bound for Mesoamerica the greatest of them all of,... 5Th century earlier, and food became part of soldiers pay, and they had a much better of... Neighbors, around 290 million, perish thorne but is a figure head which provoke Empire-wide rioting much trade place. To capitulate them fresh expansion hat if the Roman Empire never fell possible is it for Rome not have... He 's been called, he might have been the greatest of all... Have to be different the early Principate with matters that previously were dealt with by an imperial.. If Valens had kept his head, who knows Valens ( 364-378 ) Africa. A century afterwards Russia tries to retake Finland, and food became part of soldiers pay, food... The Ottoman Empire survived world war one WW1 finicky but Russian Empire, which a! Across the Baltic states '' what if their ancient elemental powers still quietly thrummed through the land yet... Inability to pay its troops increased too 's game compared to white man 's rugby before! Selfishly favoured its own aims and proved reluctant to assist other parts of the system... Closed election, a bit like the way rugby and cricket have we do n't have Crazy.